An interview with the Minister for Education and Science,
Mr. Michael Martin
On Friday 5 March 1999 four secondary school pupils from
Cork interviewed the Minister for Education and Science, Mr. Michael Martin.
The students were:
Mio Yamada is a 5th year student at Christ King Secondary School.
Mio wishes to have a future career in illustration.
Fiona Murphy is 6th year student Ursuline Convent. Fiona wants
to go into journalism.
Damien Hughes is a 2nd year student at Nagle Community school.
Damien wants to have a career in sports.
Kate Murphy is a 5th year student Christ King Secondary School,
Cork. Kate wants to go into teaching as a career.
Personal Details
Damien: Where were you born?
Minister: Bon Secours Hospital, Cork.
Damien: What schools did you go to?
Minister: Scoil Christ Ri Primary School and Colaiste Christ Ri
Secondary, both at Turners Cross in Cork.
Damien: What is your third level qualification?
Minister: BA, HDip and a Master of Arts.
Damien: Do you have other languages besides Irish and English?
Minister: To be truthful I don't, even though I did French in the
Leaving Cert.
Mio: Tell us about your family?
Minister: I met my wife Mary (O' Shea) in UCC. We got engaged in
UCC and we were married in UCC! Mary holds an MA in Local Government and
lectures in the Dept of Government, UCC. We have three children now -
Michael Aoibh who is nearly 5, Aoibhe, who is 2 and a half and infant
Rory who was born a few days ago.
Fiona: How long are you involved in politics as a career?
Minister: As a full time career since 1989. To get to where I got
to in '89 I started in 1983 in Ogra Fianna Fail where I was elected to
the National Executive of the party. Then in the local elections of 1985
I gained a seat on the Cork City Council. In 1987 I stood for election
to the Dail but failed to win a seat. I was first elected to the Dail
in 1989.
Fiona: If you had not entered politics what would your choice of
career have been?
Minister: Teaching - I was already a teacher before entering politics.
Fiona: What do you hate most about your job?
Minister: I suppose hate would be the wrong word but what I worry
about from time to time is that I don't have as much time as I should
have with my family.
Fiona: What do you like most about your job?
Minister: It's the variety and the fact that I now am in position
to make decisions which is very rewarding. But it is the kind of a job
that is changing all of the time. You are going along happily one day
and some earthquake happens the following day. It's a huge variety and
you can never predict. The fact it is unpredictable in many ways gives
you a buzz.
Kate: I'd be interested to know what your favourite TV show is
when you have a spare minute to watch TV?
Minister: Let's see now. The Rug Rats!
Mio: Put that down Kate! And who is your favourite Rug Rat, Minister?
Minister: Tommy!!!
Kate: We have something in common Minister! What are you obsessive
about in life?
Minister: My health....yes I suppose I am a hypochondriac! That's
what they all say anyway. If I eat a biscuit I say I shouldn't have eaten
that. So I'm obsessed about my health...well obsessive is probably a little
too strong a word.
Kate: And what depresses you in life?
Minister: Well I'm very much an optimistic person. I really am
not a depressive person as such and I also try to look at the bright side
of life. I think if I was to say what depresses me at times it would be
persistent bad weather. I don't like dark clouds and I yearn for the summer
months.
Kate: We're all sure that you will live a long and healthy life
but when you die what would you like to have written on your gravestone?
Minister: Oh I've never thought of that. I love life!! So perhaps
it would be I loved life.
Points Race
Fiona: Are you worried about the amount of pressure generated by
the points race?
Minister: Yes I am. I think too much pressure is generated on to
students. I also think that it dictates too much what happens in second
level schools. After all, second level education is about achieving certain
objectives towards the personal development of the person in terms of
curricular objectives.
So to a large extent the access route to third level tends to dictate
what actually happens in the classroom and we have got to change that.
To a certain degree the junior syllabus has changed that. The transition
year programme has also changed that but in senior cycle we're still wrapped
up in the points race. It's not going to be easy to change this area as
we still need an objective validating process in terms of assessment.
In other words we need to be assessing where students are at the end of
the senior cycle.
I think we will reduce the pressure by modifying the system, by changing
it. Also, by providing more places within third level, post leaving certificate
colleges and within other areas such as FAS, CERT, and so on. Last week
we published a new bill, The Qualifications Bill, which is aimed to bring
all the providers of training and education under the one umbrella in
terms of certification so that a student when they are starting out, particularly
after second level, will know were they can go, will know what the course
they are on will mean to them in terms of ongoing progression. So, for
example, if you do a FAS course after you leave school what does that
mean in terms of getting into a PLC (Post Leaving Certificate College)
or Institute of Technology or indeed University. In other words, will
you get points for doing something to get in elsewhere. And the idea of
the qualification authority, over time, is that it will work to link all
the various training programmes around the country together in that sense.
We had a crazy situation over the years where, if somebody went into an
Institute of Technology and did a three-year course and then tried to
get back into University they would have to start all over again. When
people realise that that there is a broad provision for them, that they
don't have to get into University in year one but you can get there if
you go a different route then the pressure will be eased somewhat.
Also its important to get the message across that its not all about what
you do when your 18 - education is a life-long process and in the future
the door of opportunity will be there for every young person irrespective
of age. What I am saying to young people simply is we want you to try
to do well in your Leaving Cert but also be conscious that as you grow
older there will be educational opportunities available for you.
Sub-standard Teachers
Kate: I am very fortunate in that I have never experienced sub-standard
teaching in my school but pupil exam results and their futures can be
affected by sub-standard teaching methods and sub-standard teachers. Do
you think anything can be done about this?
Minister: Yes. First of all we are setting in place a new teaching
council and we have the agreement of the teachers in this regard. Up to
now there is no professional body in terms of the professional status
of teachers so the teaching council bill is being drafted at the moment
and it will regulate the standards, qualifications and certifications
of all teachers in the country.
People who wish to complain about teachers may do so to the investigating
arm of the Teaching Council. The other point I'd like to make is that
we have put in place now welfare officers to help teachers who are in
difficulty because very often if a teacher is not performing to standard,
like everybody else there may be reasons for that. A teacher may have
health problems or may be suffering from an addiction. That teacher needs
help and very often this was not available with the subsequent problems
occurring in the classroom. Any system that's based on human resource
- in other words people - there are going to be difficulties. It's as
natural as life itself.
School League Tables
Mio: League tables, such as are available in England, are not available
here. Why is this?
Minister: Because we feel that they are a very crude yardstick
by which to measure schools. They do not measure the degree to which a
school facilitates the development of the person. Also the tables do not
measure the inputs of individual teachers. Some teachers have to work
a lot harder to help a pupil make a grade than in other schools.
Then there is the issue of the disadvantaged schools. These schools could
be doing great work but a national league table would not show this good
work. It will paint a false picture and could do a lot of damage to the
schools in terms of perception and in terms of confidence in the community
of the school. I think what we are doing as an alternate is something
much more valid - whole school evaluation and whole school planning processes
where it is concentrating on its own needs and objectives. We need to
put in place a plan to evaluate this. This has far greater depth than
simply publishing a load of numbers.
Mio: But should there not be some sort of plan by which parents
can see what sort of school they are sending their children to?
Minister: Yes, I think that parents have good access to what is
happening in education. The Education Bill which we just passed gives
parents significant powers in terms of accessing data on their students.
There is also much more choice in Ireland as to which type of school parents
can choose for their children.
School Indiscipline
Damien: Misbehaviour in school is a big problem. What measures
are you taking to solve this?
Minister: It's back to identifying at an early stage why children
are disruptive and we have put a number of pilot projects which are developed
to help keep children in school. We also have published guidelines for
schools in terms of school discipline and how teachers and schools should
respond to issues of bad behaviour. There are a number of other issues
being tackled in relation to putting extra resources into schools to facilitate
them in terms of helping those young people who are in difficulty. There
is of course no perfect solution to this problem but we need to keep watching
it in terms of helping schools.
Fiona: There have been many incidents of murder within the American
school system. Do you think this could ever happen here in Ireland?
Minister: I think we can never be complacent about this. We live
in an increasingly more violent society. It will always be a concern of
mine what happened in Scotland even though it was an adult in that case.
Or in America where youngsters do it. It can happen here so it is important
for all to be vigilant in schools. Of course this is an issue for society
as a whole.
Corruption in Politics
Fiona: Its quiet difficult for the public to relate to politicians
in the present climate of dishonesty, not only in Ireland but also around
the World. What do you think about that?
Minister: Well I think it is very important that the people find
out what is happening. The tribunals in Ireland are very good. Corruption
is as old as man himself and the struggle between good and evil. Evil
triumphs where good men do nothing, as the famous quote goes. In other
words we should all aim to do the best and behave honestly. And we should
strive to insure that it happens within our community. Politicians along
with other public figures have a key role in society and it is important
that we are above board and honest in everything we do. The system is
to a certain extent reeling from the revelations that have emerged over
a number of years and the system must put in place processes, which prevent
reoccurrences of that.
Perhaps its time to reconsider the area of funding political parties.
If we want to separate completely the donation aspect from companies there
is only one way to do that and thats through state contribution so that
there is not the same dependence on private funding.
Kate: What would your advice be for a young person thinking of entering
into political life after your experiences of the ups and downs of the
career?
Minister: It's a very difficult life. I think that young people should
be interested in politics, there are many ways you can do that. However,
to become a full time politician is a very long road, as I said earlier.
It took me eight years and I was lucky. Even getting selected is a very
difficult task.
Student Councils
Mio: What is your opinion of the Student Council, their present
role and the power they have over student life?
Minister: Well I'm a great advocate of Student Councils. The Education
Act now provides in law that the Student Council will be established.
Some Student Councils are excellent, some are not so good and some schools
have no student council. So my main target is to ensure that by next August
all schools will be engaged in the setting up Student Councils.
Student Xpress
Mio: What is your opinion of Student Xpress?
Minister: Fantastic! It's a wonderful production. The quality is
great and it gives an opportunity to students in particular to write and
be published. And indeed it will give students a feel for journalism as
another window of experience. And you never know, but that in years to
come, you might be grilling me on some other issues in another capacity!
So I think it's very good.
Commercialisation
Damien: What signals do you think that current TV shows and magazines
are throwing out to young people?
Minister: There is a lot of violence in programmes at the moment.
There's an awful commercialisation as well. Kids are under pressure to
have this and that. There are a lot of false gods of greed and material
well being.
On the other hand there are a lot of programmes, which provide positive
messages and images for youth. In this respect young people are far more
privileged than in previous generations in that you know a lot more about
the world faster than previous generations. So I suppose there are mixed
messages coming out with some positive images but a lot of programmes
have false stuff like that life is easy and good and that we should do
what we want. Life is far more difficult than that. We all can't be with
Pamela Anderson in Baywatch!! It doesn't happen that way.
Kate: Some shows are shown at an inappropriate time slot. As a
parent would you like control over what goes on or would you like the
networks to have control over this?
Minister: There should be some consultative process. It might be
no harm if parents' councils had some form of organised forum to articulate
their concerns. The fundamental control that parents have at the moment
of course is inside their homes. They can switch it off.
Physical Education
Mio: What impact will the placing of PE onto the curriculum have
on sport in general?
Minister: A very significant impact but more importantly it will
have a positive impact in relation to the physical health of the child
be they sports minded or not. Also students will have the possibility
of doing PE on the Leaving Certificate and at the moment we are running
a pilot on the Junior Certificate course.
Schools in the next Millennium
Damien: How do you see the school system working in the year 2020?
Minister: I don't know. I think perhaps that everyone will have
a laptop instead of a copybook. But the bottom line is that the fundamental
will be the same because education is a human resource issue - the teacher
and the student. It has to be.
All: Thanks, Minister.
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